Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain

**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:23 pm

MMODB has those listed. As well as sets for other classes.

http://lotro.mmodb.com/sets/armour-of-the-north-star-65.php

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Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.

**Lamaerahd** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:45 pm

Those sets are amazingly good... I must get to the Rift some day Very Happy

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**Jerelien** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:07 pm

Mick wrote:

I look forward to a lively dialog about captains, leaders of men.

Now Jerelien is nearly 50th I though it'd be a good time to share a few thoughts of my own regarding captains.

Overall the captain has been a fun class to play. Not ideal for a beginner with benefit of hindsight but there is a lot of flexibility within the class that means you have a toolbox of skills to cover most situations. The class does not excel in any one area though, other than buffing, which is most useful in a fellowship, meaning it can seem a bit middle of the road sometimes.

Going down Mick's list of points:

Attributes. You can't afford to ignore any stat as a captain but there is still an order of importance. As a general pointer at 49th my stats range from roughly 250-350, reflecting this generalist approach.

Might: the Captain is a melee class so Might drives melee damage, CD mitigation, Parry & Block (not that you will often use a shield)
Vitality: this was a tight call for 2nd spot but the captain's trademark is survivability and the ability to stay on their feet in fs situations when others are going down. With this in mind Vitality doesn't just drive morale it drives Wound, Poison and Disease resistance plus Fire, Frost and Shadow mitigation.
Agility: this divides people a bit but with middling melee skills the one chance you have for a big hit is to keep your melee crit %age high and equip Expert attacks for the 5% bonus on DB/PA. If you do crit on one of these it will also open your defeat response skills (nice!). It also drives Evade and Parry skills.
Fate: this improves regeneration, contributing to survivability but also improves the chance and magnitude of tactical crits on your heals and cries.
Will: Some captain skills are quite power hungry but for long combats I'd rather equip power regen items. Not sure if power consumption is still a big issue.

Gear. At 49th I am lucky enough to have a complete set of Mirrored Knight's armour and can really recommend it Smile

. I have Brilliant MM Silver earrings and bracelets, engraved beryl rings (can't afford etched beryl gear yet) and have a couple of good necklaces that I bought on the AH to round things out.

Weapon. As Mick said a good 2H weapon is essential. Halberds have the advantage of a slow speed improving power consumption, although a 2H sword is tempting to make use of the 2% race bonus. At present my MAS Halberd has pride of place, although I also have my eye on the Halberd of War class reward, which will be great for fs-ing and maybe a MAS 2H sword. I have Steadfast (3 ICPR) for when I reach 50th and would also like to build up a selection of damage types for different occasions. I like to have a good shield and 1H weapons for those times I get jumped by 3 or 4 mobs. The block plus extra armour make me very had to kill and I always have ICPR on both for increased durability. My current 1H is a Precise AS Axe but I aspire to an Ornate Black Ash Spear.

Virtues. By co-incidence I also have Idealism, Valour, Justice, Determination and Discipline for soloing but substitute Tolerance for Valour when fs-ing.

Race traits. Curently equipped Strength of Morale (big heal), Balance of Man, Strength of Will, Mannish Virtue, Dutybound. Last 2 can be varied eg for +2% race sword bonus or Return to Bree, according to the situation.

Class traits. I equip the following solo:

Renewed Voice: makes that Battle Shout come around more often Smile

Defiance: Extra duration on Last Stand plus heal at the end make this a must have.
Captain of Hope: Traiting a Herald is essential in whatever build you go for but I like the up front morale and the +1 Hope buff for soloing.
Expert Attacks: +5% bonus to DB/PA crit and chance of defeat event opening is great
Now for Wrath: ability to heal power is great solo or in fs

In fs:

Drop Renewed Voice as my damage output is less critical plus I am usually healing and buffing more anyway for Fear No Darkness, which makes the Captain's WoC much more effective. I am often the main healer in fs.
Change Captain of Hope for Captain of Victory. Power & power regen buff really keep the fs wheels turning in long combats.

Legendary traits. I have currently equipped Oathbreaker's Curse and Shield of the Dunedain as these are useful both in fs-ing and solo. In our current system both are useful in keeping the tank alive and I don't see the use in the corruption one as I'd rather keep people alive in the first place Wink

I'm drooling over IDOME and still have 3 items to go. Will prob drop Shield of the Dunedain for this when I get it.

Tactics. I am a big fan of the herald for the tactical flexibility it allows with off-tanking (max of one mob) and think it is much maligned. The small heal, taunt and damage buffs are nice too. The taunt is needed as the herald's aggro generation is negligible and any form of healing has to be used with care or you will pull the mob off it. Keep meaning to try the Loyalty trait but never get around to it Wink

The average damage output but excellent survivability (second only to guardian) means you can take on either multiple mobs or single tough elites with confidence when soloing. For the latter I prefer the Hope standard with +20% morale, +10% damage on top of the regular Hope buff giving me ~4.5k morale. The point being that the options around 1H/Shield, Herald and banner provide options for every occasion.

Fellowshipping is more complex and it has taken me a long time to fully understand a captain's role. Despite the heavy armour and good survivability skills a captain can never be a tank due to it's poor aggro management capability. Instead it is a kind of support class, buffing fellows to improve offence or defence, marking opponents, using herald/banner to keep the fs pumped up, supporting the tank/main assist with shield brother buffs, adding DPS, healing etc.

In short it is being whatever the fellowship needs you to be and a good captain can make a fellowship out of the most unlikely ingredients. It is also has the ability to influence the direction of a combat using it's buffs and has the ability to pull things back from the edge of disaster using IHW/LS/SoM or the two in-combat resurrection skills.

**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:52 am

Jerelien wrote:

Weapon. As Mick said a good 2H weapon is essential. Halberds have the advantage of a slow speed improving power consumption, although a 2H sword is tempting to make use of the 2% race bonus. At present my MAS Halberd has pride of place, although I also have my eye on the Halberd of War class reward, which will be great for fs-ing and maybe a MAS 2H sword. I have Steadfast (3 ICPR) for when I reach 50th and would also like to build up a selection of damage types for different occasions. I like to have a good shield and 1H weapons for those times I get jumped by 3 or 4 mobs. The block plus extra armour make me very had to kill and I always have ICPR on both for increased durability. My current 1H is a Precise AS Axe but I aspire to an Ornate Black Ash Spear.

I have changed my mind about weapons a billion times. If you plan to off-tank, a MAS halberd is a clear choise with the threat increase and burst damage. Normal questing doesn't require you to carry different damage type weapons, beleriand and light are the best general choises. I also think that ICPR is very important, but equally important is that you don't waste your power. You don't have to do a melee blow every time you can. Captain actually does fairly decent damage by just auto-attacking, and skipping a melee strike here and there is a smart choice if it seems you run low on power. After all your most important duties are healing and buffing, and you don't want to limit yourself in those areas.

I just acquired the reward for book 13, Sword of Keria, but the speed is just too fast. The ICPR 3 equals to 180 power regen per minute. That's what, 2 melee skills? I say slower is better in this aspect. These days I wield a MAS Headman's axe. I like that power instead of morale. And armour rend is also a nice buff, as I'm most times hitting the MA's target and thus buffing several people's damage.

Jerelien wrote:

Class traits. I equip the following solo:

Renewed Voice: makes that Battle Shout come around more often Smile

Defiance: Extra duration on Last Stand plus heal at the end make this a must have.
Captain of Hope: Traiting a Herald is essential in whatever build you go for but I like the up front morale and the +1 Hope buff for soloing.
Expert Attacks: +5% bonus to DB/PA crit and chance of defeat event opening is great
Now for Wrath: ability to heal power is great solo or in fs

In fs:

Drop Renewed Voice as my damage output is less critical plus I am usually healing and buffing more anyway for Fear No Darkness, which makes the Captain's WoC much more effective. I am often the main healer in fs. Change Captain of Hope for Captain of Victory. Power & power regen buff really keep the fs wheels turning in long combats.

I usually run soloing with Renewed Voice, Captain of Victory, Now for Wrath, Fear no Darkness and Defiance. This is pretty much a group oriented build, but I can handle most situations with this build too.

So the same set up for grouping, maybe switch RV for Captain of War if going for serious instanced business. Also coordiante banners if other captains come along. I don't wanna switch it up every time. I'm just too lazy.

Jerelien wrote:

Legendary traits.
I have currently equipped Oathbreaker's Curse and Shield of the Dunedain as these are useful both in fs-ing and solo. In our current system both are useful in keeping the tank alive and I don't see the use in the corruption one as I'd rather keep people alive in the first place Wink

I believe you nowadays run with IDOME and OS, which is the same set up I use. For the longest time I ran with IDOME and Defy Corruption, but that's useful only when things go bad. And not even then could make a difference in most cases. OS 5min cooldown is really cool. I haven't played much with SotD, maybe I should try that out too.

Jerelien wrote:

Tactics

I would just like to point out to any captains out there that are using Hope or Victory banners to place them in the ground before you get in combat mode. If you plant it only when in battle, you'll see a huge gap appear in your vitals. That can be avoided if you plant the banner to the ground before aggroing mobs. Wait 2 seconds for the regen to fill you up, then run to the mob (or pull, even simpler) and plant it again when everyone are still in range of the first one. This in my pet peeve.

_________________
Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.

**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:28 am

Wow, I'm quoting myself! Crazy.

Mick wrote:

I just acquired the reward for book 13, Sword of Keria, but the speed is just too fast. The ICPR 3 equals to 180 power regen per minute. That's what, 2 melee skills? I say slower is better in this aspect. These days I wield a MAS Headman's axe. I like that power instead of morale. And armour rend is also a nice buff, as I'm most times hitting the MA's target and thus buffing several people's damage.

You could also argue that ICPR 3 is 900 power in a 5 min battle. Considersing the speeds:
60 / 2.6 = 23 attacks per minute
60 / 3.2 = 18.75 attacks per minute

That is more than 2 attacks. But rarely will you just swing away for a whole minute in one spot. And there is a 2% sword damage race bonus. Hmph... getting difficult. And I'm not that confident on my math either at this hour.

Help me out here. Very Happy

_________________
Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.

**Jerelien** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:27 am

Mick wrote:

Considersing the speeds:
60 / 2.6 = 23 attacks per minute
60 / 3.2 = 18.75 attacks per minute

That is more than 2 attacks. But rarely will you just swing away for a whole minute in one spot. And there is a 2% sword damage race bonus. Hmph... getting difficult. And I'm not that confident on my math either at this hour.

Help me out here. Very Happy

I use MAS Greatsword at the moment 60/2.8 = ~21.5 attacks/min

I have mixed feelings on this one. 180 power/min will cover 3 attacks assuming they're Def Strike at least. From a power efficiency perspective then you're better off with the halberd. Also if you crit on DB the halberds huge (125) max damage means you get better damage (x3 max damage on DB).

For me the downsides of the halberd are that the slow speed makes it harder to react to things. Sounds crazy but in fs I like that extra 0.4s reaction time with my MAS Greatsword, esp on things like Kick. Sword of Keria would give 0.6. The threat on the Halberd is at best useless in fs and at worst you get aggo when you don't need it. Sword has the to hit bonus and the 2% damage bonus, both of which are useful.

I hadn't considered the armour rend of the axe - how often do you get this ie is it reliable? I only like things that come up at least once/combat otherwise what's the point. The 2H axe also offers most of the benefits of the Halberd ie better power efficiency and better crits.

On which one to pick it depends which you value most. 2H sword gives me nicer morale and more reliable damage plus decent reaction time so I'll prob stick with that, assuming I'm not under power stress (also I like swords). If power is a big factor, prob the 2H axe. I'd go with SoK if Beleriand damage was going to be a big help but not otherwise - max damage is relatively low.

**Clavain** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:31 pm

wow... in LOTRO terms... you guys are nerds... Razz

it's like a techies conventions in here.. geek

Mind you, it is as well that somebody pays attention to the right way to do thing. J has alomst taught more about being an LM as playing did.

afro

you fly, bro'

C

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**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:08 pm

Jerelien wrote:

For me the downsides of the halberd are that the slow speed makes it harder to react to things. Sounds crazy but in fs I like that extra 0.4s reaction time with my MAS Greatsword, esp on things like Kick. sword of Keria would give 0.6. The threat on the Halberd is at best useless in fs and at worst you get aggo when you don't need it. Sword has the to hit bonus and the 2% damage bonus, both of which are useful.

I definitely know what you mean. Especially when fighting mobs who can slow you down even more, like worms or goblin-town goblins, I can usually go wash the dishes and cook a macaroni casserole between the first and second attack.

Jerelien wrote:

I hadn't considered the armour rend of the axe - how often do you get this ie is it reliable? I only like things that come up at least once/combat otherwise what's the point. The 2H axe also offers most of the benefits of the Halberd ie better power efficiency and better crits.

Well needless to say, it's totally random. When soloing normal mobs it doesn't pop on every mob, but I still see it quite often.

Jerelien wrote:

On which one to pick it depends which you value most. 2H sword gives me nicer morale and more reliable damage plus decent reaction time so I'll prob stick with that, assuming I'm not under power stress (also I like swords). If power is a big factor, prob the 2H axe. I'd go with SoK if Beleriand damage was going to be a big help but not otherwise - max damage is relatively low.

I think power is the most important thing for me in a long fight, and on that aspect the axe suits me nicely. But I'm definitely gonna try that SoK out, just to get a feel to it.

_________________
Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.

**Jerelien** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:22 pm

Clavain wrote:

you fly, bro'

Normally just after I've been punted by a damn troll Shocked

Thanks mate Wink

**Marlon** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:14 pm

Clavain wrote:

wow... in LOTRO terms... you guys are nerds... Razz

it's like a techies conventions in here.. geek

yeah.

Everyone familiar with Conan O´Brien and the way he imitates a nerd knows the image that comes to my mind when reading this conversation

Two of those nerds exchanging thoughts with a high voice, shaking their other index finger to bolster their message and fixing the position of their classes with the other. Very Happy

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**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:15 pm

I'll get mi coat.

_________________
Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.

**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:30 pm

Soloing the SoK feels pretty good, but some harder fellowing is where it's measured. It does ramp my ICPR to a whopping 1106 (with captain's victory traited and with the victory banner). That's kinda tempting.

Other thing I wondered is the mysterious melee efficiency rating. Changing from MAS Headman's Axe to SoK increases the rating from 246 to 248 (again with the victory thingies). Wonder if the rating takes into account the wield-ability of SoK? Traiting the 2% sword bonus didn't move the rating a bit. What the hell I'm supposed to conclude about all this?

_________________
Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.

**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:07 am

I did a couple of fellowship quests with longer battles with the Sword of Keria. Every time I ended up with no power in the end. Maybe a part of is that I'm not used to a faster weapon. Anyways, I'm inclined to use the MAS Headman's Axe. Also did a small test with the armour rend. Targeted on level 48 Forochel Angmarims, doing auto attacks the result was:

207 attacks (parried, blocked, missed attacks included)
10 procked rends

The test is obviously not that conclusive, it's just to give a ball park idea of it's usefulness. Still have to figure out the actual effect. Very Happy

Additional bonus of going without the sword is getting one more race trait slot, going to virtuous man (+1 justice). Not much, but still.

_________________
Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.

**Jerelien** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:20 pm

Jerelien's melee efficiency is pretty similar. I'd always thought of this as a simplistic stat, derived from the DPS of the weapon plus might as these were the only things that seemed to affect it.

A while back when I got my MAS Greatsword though I noticed something odd. The only difference between that and the MAS Halberd is that the sword gives you +30 Might vs +30 Vit for the hally. In theory then ME should have gone up. Instead it went down from 247 to 246! Go figure. This also included +2% man sword bonus, although I'm pretty sure this isn't included.

The only thing I could think of then was that ME represents per blow damage in some way ie it strips out the swing speed. This then would mean that the lower damage of the sword was being taken into account. However SoK has an even faster speed/lower damage so I'd expect ME to be lower, not higher - are you sure you got these the right way round?

Thanks for the update on Axe vs SoK. You often see power regen on faster weapons and my suspicion was always that you needed the regen just to make the weapon usable. I quite fancy Hill Defender (2.8 speed, 3 icpr), if it comes up on Azgoth. The best 1H weapon I've seen for power-efficiency is either Precise AS axe (2.4 speed, 1.1 icpr) or Stone-Biter (2.3 speed, 1.5 icpr - rare drop from Helchie). Everything else with 1.5 icpr has a speed of 2 or less ie unusable.

The rend thing looks handy enough, even @ ~5% you'd probably get it to proc at least once in a long fight. If it wasn't for the cost/hassle I'd try one myself. I'll prob stick with sword though as I have a soft spot for them and like the 2% extra damage. For long fights and off tanking I've always got my trusty halberd! I went with 2H hammer for a while early in J's career and quite like them (both from a style perspective and the stun) but you don't seem to get many/any teal ones.

**Mick** · Subject: Re: Mickster's 2 cents concerning the Captain Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:27 pm

Jerelien wrote:

However SoK has an even faster speed/lower damage so I'd expect ME to be lower, not higher - are you sure you got these the right way round?

They're right alright. Seems pretty odd all together.

Jerelien wrote:

Thanks for the update on Axe vs SoK. You often see power regen on faster weapons and my suspicion was always that you needed the regen just to make the weapon usable. I quite fancy Hill Defender (2.8 speed, 3 icpr), if it comes up on Azgoth.

Hilly is quite nice. As I understand the drop rates have gone up with some patches, but still a drop during the couple of times downing Azgoth for the class quests is unlikely.

Jerelien wrote:

The rend thing looks handy enough, even @ ~5% you'd probably get it to proc at least once in a long fight. If it wasn't for the cost/hassle I'd try one myself. I'll prob stick with sword though as I have a soft spot for them and like the 2% extra damage. For long fights and off tanking I've always got my trusty halberd! I went with 2H hammer for a while early in J's career and quite like them (both from a style perspective and the stun) but you don't seem to get many/any teal ones.

5% doesn't sound that much, but if every other strike is auto attack, it's every 10th melee skill. Experimental study shows that soloing normal mobs the rend procs on every other mob. So fairly useful. Still don't know how much the armour is actually lowered and what the effect is. Very Happy

_________________
Playing Lotro is like making love to a beautiful woman; you enter with the state of mind that patience and determination are the virtues here, but after some ferocious efforts you realize that the time spent has been in vain.