Champion

Gonna, write something about the champions, THE REAL CORE of the fellowships
Copy-pasted from the MIck article and changed it more suitable for champions

Marlon Harefield, a champion of Bree-land, , at your service.

I´ve reached level 50 about a month ago and don´t have the same experience about the game in general as Mick has. But I´m better player in any other way than he is
So these thoughts of mine are based on my own experinces and should NOT be concidered as the only truth.



Attributes. To put it plane and simple, no attribute should be overlooked with a champion either, with the exepction of Fate. Can´t really find that one uselful in any way to the champions. (maybe for soloing ones, because of the out-of combat morale regen) . Vitality ain´t that important either, at least for champions who enjoy the benefits of fellowship-questing. For soloing champions vitality is an attribute that shouldn´t be too much overlooked.
In my opinnion the most important attributes for champion are might and will. Might causes you to make some serious constant damage, which is at the end of the day, the main purpouse for the champions existance. Will on the other hand increases champions maximum power, which is very important thing. A champion who´s power has run out in a battle is as important as christmas tree in the summertime. Agility, of course, increases champions chances to deal critical hits. One might want to think wether it is better to hit hard with most of his hits (might) or get some critical hits now and then (agility). I myself have concentrated mainly on might. Will and Agilty come second and vitality the third. I have overlooked fate totally.


Gear. Naturally heavy armour is the armour class for the champions. But once again, for the champions constantly doing fellowships with guardians in them, one might want to think the importance of the stats of armour instead of the armour value. So if you have to choose between medium armour gloves with far better attribute stats and heavy armour ones with higher armour value but lower stats, you should really think of choosing the first one.
The ideal situation naturally is to find heavy armour gear with good stats.

Weapon. I´m not that familiar with the different damage types and stuff like that. But one thing I can and will poin out.
Dual wielding is the thing for the champions. Definately. Some of the skills Champions acquires at the mid- and high levels are uselful only with dual wield. At the lower levels it´s a matter of personal taste wether you use dual wield or 2-h weapon. Naturally 2 x 1h-weapon gives better attribute stats though.


Virtues. As Mick already mentioned in his Captain topic this really is a matter of personal taste. Naturally it would be nice to go with the ones giving bonuses to the right attributes.


Class traits. This really depends wether you are up for AOEing or just dealing major single hits. AS above matter of taste really.


Legendary traits. Haven´t completed the Champion quests yet, so can´t say too much about those traits yet. Though the controlling burn-trait appears to increase damage and power recovery, which is always welcome.
As for the traits acquired from the books, only one of them is useful. Fericious strikes it is called. The other two seem to be pure and simple rubbish.



Tactics. Nothing special in here really. Though one might want to keep in mind that Champion really CANNOT stand that much damage as guardians do. So think it over very carefully wether you want to attack more than 2 mobs at the time. As champions crowd-control skills are next to non-existant, a brave champion charging alone in the middle of crowd of mobs is a dead champion in many cases. 2 mobs of the same level as champion should cause no signifcant problems let alone 1.
Champion has 6 different single attack skills (5, depending on the traits) Champion doesn´t deal the biggest damage with his first, second or not even with third of his blows. So don´t get impantient and smack the foes with the skills dealing the lesser damage.
There is this thing called fervour (This could be compared to Rage in WOW). There more Champion gets excited in the heat of the battle, the more powerful blows he is able to deal. So don´t go waisting all of the fervour on lower damage blows.( 2 lowest ones, Wild Attack and Swift Strike, in fact add the fervour, so keep hitting with them untill the fervour goes up.) Let it grow and enjoy the reasults.


In the fellowships, champion is usually the main-assist and the main damage dealer. Champion can act as emergency tank aswell, but even though champion has quite good variety of aggro-management skills it isn´t wise to act as the main tank. First of all the impressive amount of damage the champion is capable of dealing goes all to waste while tanking and secondly and more importantly, champions cannot stand that much damage compared to guardians. Champion is very usable in kicking the shit out of adds while Guardian is keeping the boss busy. And thus keeping the minstrel´s arse unspoilled. But in general keeping the minstrel safe isn´t the main task for champion. Once again the full benefit of champions damage dealing goes to waste in doing this. There are better classes for protecting the Minstrel.
AOE´ing in fellowships is advicable only while dealing with normal mobs. When elites or such are concerned AOE´ing is something that is DEFINATELY out of the question. A hot headed warrior swinging his AOE-skills around while surrounded by elite mobs is the second easiest way of getting the entire fellowship dead. Can´t even be bothered to explain why, but if you are interested in finding the reason, go ahead try it out. Just don´t say you weren´t warned. (oh, the easiest way? didn´t you quess already? AOE´ing hunter, ring any bells? )

Marlon wrote:

To put it plane and simple, no attribute should be overlooked with a champion either, with the exepction of Fate. Can´t really find that one uselful in any way to the champions. (maybe for soloing ones, because of the out-of combat morale regen) .

Is I understand Fate adds in-combat morale and in-combat power regeneration (and tactical crits), as vitality adds for out-of combat morale reg (and morale and various resists). Is this different for champs in some way? I know Fervour adds in-combat morale reg, but other than that...

Marlon wrote:

In the fellowships, champion is usually the main-assist and the main damage dealer.

Yesterday we did learn this the hard way while adventuring in Urugarth. This is how it should and must be..champion should be the one who is targeting the mobs and the others need to follow him.
If everyone starts to attack mobs of their own choose, it could easily turn into the plain and simple chaos.
The tank can´t hold the aggro of the mobs, while everyone is fireing little bit here and little bit there and the damage dealt to those adds isn´t that good when everyone is attacking mob of their own.

The order of the targeting for the champs is quite simple...non-elites first, sig, elites. etc... though there are times when champ might have to turn the attention of ranged mobs on himself and allow the minstrels concentrate on keeping the tank alive.
In fact the ranged mobs are the top priority. They should be taken care of first, if possible. Good way for champion to do this is to use his shouts and with the help of landscape(rocks, walls, etc etc) draw the mob into a melee fight.

It could happen, and it will, at times that champions targerting doesn´t go exactly by the book. But if it doesn´t go totally bonkers, it definately is easiest that everyone else follows the champion instead of taking the decision in their own hands.
One thing though that is essential when targeting is concerned, is the communication between the stunners and the champion..no burglar/lore-master/hunter likes to see the mob they have just managed to get stunned attacked by the cahmpion. And no champion likes to get his target feared while trying to beat living **** out of it.

Marlon wrote:

AOE´ing in fellowships is advicable only while dealing with normal mobs. When elites or such are concerned AOE´ing is something that is DEFINATELY out of the question. A hot headed warrior swinging his AOE-skills around while surrounded by elite mobs is the second easiest way of getting the entire fellowship dead. Can´t even be bothered to explain why, but if you are interested in finding the reason, go ahead try it out. Just don´t say you weren´t warned. (oh, the easiest way? didn´t you quess already? AOE´ing hunter, ring any bells? )

Had the "privilege" of witnessing these things in practice yesterday aswell.
I´m talking about the aoe´ing (not by a champ though) and the hunters messing it all up for the fellowship.

Don´t you just love it when the hunter is far too trigger happy or taking care of the pulling the mobs with his own decision?
Result commonly is that the mob(s) runs past the tank and the other group straight at the hunter which them fears the lot, thus avoiding to get himself hit , and resulting the mobs running around the neighborhood and the tank and the melees unable the hit the bastards or able to get any control of them what so ever. Nice wouldn´t you agree?

Had the pleasure of witnessing a hunter and a minstrel(not Fallen Renegades neither of them, naturally ) causing some real havoc with aoe last night too..the result? entire fellowship dead in just few seconds.
Luckily enough the people in question with the later occasion where smart enough to learn from their mistakes and it went quite smoothly towards the end.

Yea. Quite an experience yesterday. Prime example why main assist (MA) is so important.

The hunter said when we started that he had been in vacation for the last 3 months, not playing. Maybe that should have told us something. I don't wanna bash all hunters, cause not all are the same, but if you wanna ruin it for the group... that's the way to go. Executing solo-tactics in fellowship.

I don't wanna seem like I know everything (which I of course do), but the tank too was a bit lost. Pulling constantly with the bow was a bad choise in my opinion. I cannot stress this enough.. a tank needs to get the aggro of all mobs. He just has to trust that he will be healed. The concentrated DPS will pull the one mob away, but only the one. Rain of Arrows and other AoE ruins it all. 100 % certain.

When the tank is trying to get all aggro, others should even wait the couple of seconds for him to get the aggro. If you're not familiar with these tactics, it seems stupid, I know. But there is a point: organizing what otherwise is a chaos. There are few things more annoying than for the hunter (or anyone else for that matter), to shoot as many mobs as they can with high damage. Mobs run past the tank... and control is gone.

Like it says in the forums and elsewhere with in more detail.. tank aggroes everything, minstrel heals tank, MA (usually the champion) organizes the killing-order, everyone else assist MA. Yes, there is crowd control and other responsibilities too, but in a nutshell, that's it.

I don't wanna sound like a kiss-ass here, but Taera is one of the best minstrels out there. Focus in healing. Know your role.

Marlon wrote:

One thing though that is essential when targeting is concerned, is the communication between the stunners and the champion

And communication in general. Between the tank and the stunners is highly important too. Marlon already explained the squashing-order there... the stunners should stun the strongest (or ranged) mobs, and MA should start from the weakest (or ranged) mobs. Tank keeps all others in his grasp. TALK TALK TALK!

Mick wrote:

I don't wanna sound like a kiss-ass here, but Taera is one of the best minstrels out there. Focus in healing. Know your role.

Totally agree on this one. I feel myself very safe everytime I have Taera on my side. Can definately trust on the decisions of the healer with her in the fellowship.
There are minstrels and there are "minstrels". Naturally this goes with every class, but with minstrels and guardians the difference between the good and not so good ones shows much more easily than with other classes.

Not wanting to do the old compare to the unmentionable game, but I remember Marlon saying, when he was like level 30ish, something like: "this game is easier than WoW, in the sense that people don't have to do a flawless job to be succesful in group play".

Still thinking like that?
Dying 10 times in one day really takes it out of ya.

For the record, I never played WoW. So I can't compare.

Mick wrote:

Not wanting to do the old compare to the unmentionable game, but I remember Marlon saying, when he was like level 30ish, something like: "this game is easier than WoW, in the sense that people don't have to do a flawless job to be succesful in group play".

Still thinking like that?
Dying 10 times in one day really takes it out of ya.

For the record, I never played WoW. So I can't compare.

Fair enough...
I´ll try to explain myself a bit...
Ok, recently i´ve noticed that there are things that people really should and shouldn´t do. Just reading the few posts above is a good example.
But yet, somehow, i feel that this game is much more forgiving than WoW.
Ok, at these higher levels even a one mistake could cost dearly, but at the lower and mid levels you don´t get punished from a single mistake.

As in WoW that wasn´t the case at all imho. Have to confess though, that i wasn´t too much into group-questing and doing instnaces in WoW, much more a pvp-maniac. So it might just be that I wasn´t that familiar with all the aspects of group-questing in WoW.
One thing that I have been thinking that could make the impression about LOTRO being "easier" in this matter, is the fact that the players in LOTRO are MUCH more easy going that in WoW. There one could get slaughtered verbally after making even a minor mistake. That is a thing that I haven´t run into in LOTRO so far.

Have to agree about the player base. Yesterday when I tried to explain to the fellowship what the goal and the tactics should be, I at the same time realized that I probably come off like a know-it-all dick.

I don't like to tell people how they should play their character, especially because I haven't played any other char than the capt, but I felt it would be better to try advise them a little than to continue the smackdown we were getting. And I think it got a little better towards the end.

Marlon wrote:

One thing that I have been thinking that could make the impression about LOTRO being "easier" in this matter, is the fact that the players in LOTRO are MUCH more easy going that in WoW. There one could get slaughtered verbally after making even a minor mistake. That is a thing that I haven´t run into in LOTRO so far.

I'd say that there are more mature players in LOTRO than in WOW and that's why it is so.

Being a guardian myself, it isn't quite my class forum area, but after reading this I'd like to comment a little:

Mick wrote:

Like it says in the forums and elsewhere with in more detail.. tank aggroes everything, minstrel heals tank, MA (usually the champion) organizes the killing-order, everyone else assist MA. Yes, there is crowd control and other responsibilities too, but in a nutshell, that's it.

Undoubtely, Mick is right in this, and I happily throw myself on all the bosses upfront (with a healer in my back, please!) while others care for the lesser mobs. But often people seem to think that their DPS (at which a guardian lacks heavily) count more than the durability of the tank (which obviously is what the guardian is designed for). I especially like the idea of the group to wait a few seconds before taking any actions to allow me to gather up some aggro - it's perfect teamwork, though it surely feels odd at first.

Sadly, I often faced the above described mess of (random) fellowship members pulling off mobs from me, so I'd start to run around helplessly to get a smack in at all - what a silly feeling that is, especially knowing that most often it's time to run soon (if you can). The usual reasons for group failures are over-dpsing the tank or shooting random targets. Yet, I have the hope that these kinda problems are mainly due to the 30'ish level I am at, and therefore most players not being experienced in teamwork since it only started to be required rather few levels ago. People seem to have to get used to it, after getting to this level mostly solo.

But there's another most important thing to know about guardians: Most of their special attacks that draw aggro, do somewhat useful damage, stun or recover power, only get enabled after blocking/parrying, so it is most important to have plenty of mobs bashing the guardian for "working" at maximum efficiency.

Besides, at least seeing players at my currently 30'ish level, I learnt to not trust a random healer blindly and found that my way of going for a maximum in-combat regeneration saved my life many times, as it makes a huge difference in longer battles. (And in short battles nobody requires a tank anyways). With such "base healing" I usually am happy doing red mobs with "only" a secondary healer as teampartner, and I only can recommend this kinda setup for tanking, while I consider Might and Vitality as second important attributes on my equipment.

Tigrim wrote:

Yet, I have the hope that these kinda problems are mainly due to the 30'ish level I am at, and therefore most players not being experienced in teamwork since it only started to be required rather few levels ago. People seem to have to get used to it, after getting to this level mostly solo.

This was exactly my experience when leveling. Most of the fellowships near the level cap have been fairly good.

Tigrim wrote:

But there's another most important thing to know about guardians: Most of their special attacks that draw aggro, do somewhat useful damage, stun or recover power, only get enabled after blocking/parrying, so it is most important to have plenty of mobs bashing the guardian for "working" at maximum efficiency.

Couple of times I have had the pleasure to meet one of the funniest builds that this game has to offer: Cowardly Guardian.
They do not get what Tigrim is saying here. Although I can understand their attitude if they've never played with a dedicated healer.

Tigrim wrote:

I especially like the idea of the group to wait a few seconds before taking any actions to allow me to gather up some aggro - it's perfect teamwork, though it surely feels odd at first.

I know what you mean. It's obvious that it should go this way but some people do not understand that simply rule. It happens that I'm talking about it while in fellowship dozen times and seems like the others are deaf or something and I give up...

-edit- Ehm... sorry for offtopic it's not a guardian thread

i always find that when im in a group i always end up as the back up tank incase the guardian is defeated (rare as that is)

Galatyer wrote:

i always find that when im in a group i always end up as the back up tank incase the guardian is defeated (rare as that is)

That is usually the case. Champion can act as a back- up tank quite efficiently. But one might want to wonder why that has happened? Something has gone somewhat horribly wrong at first place if the Guardian gets killed.
Following the "main rule" which has been talked over many times does tend to ease everyones job, included champions and there really is NO need for champion to do tanking.

1. Guardian aggros all the mobs and keeps the main focus on the most powerful one. Minstrel keeps healing the tank.
2. After this has happened, champion(not hunter, or anyone else) picks ONE target and everyone else than Tank attacks THIS mob. (someone should be keeping an eye on minstrel, that he/she doesn´t get attacked by ranged mobs and if she does aggro them)
3. Keep doing this till every other mob has died and then focus on the last one.

As mentioned above and in several other palces, this is only the plot in general, but it really works, believe me. No need to act as a back-up tank because guardian has died if this "plan" is followed.
Naturally it can go horribly wrong if even one char is ignoring his duties, normally some trigger happy hunter, guardian that isn´t upto his task, melee-minstrel or hot headed champion, but if people are keeping it plain and simple it works very well.

Of course what Mick says is correct, but there's also another scenario possible, e.g. in a group with a "spare" champion.

This one could easily work as off-tank, aka pulling away a few lesser mobs from the main tank or the softies, incase there's just too many of them for a single tank. (Possibly this was ment with "backup tank").

Since a champion uses heavy armor, with a proper healer in the back, he/she can tank quite okay in average situations. Especially seeing the nice damage amount this is great for crowds of lesser foes. But the lack of a shield and defensive ability will not make a champion last long in tough situations.

i also seem to be regulaly abandoned by the group or left behind when fighting

Tigrim wrote:

Of course what Mick says is correct, but there's also another scenario possible, e.g. in a group with a "spare" champion.

This one could easily work as off-tank, aka pulling away a few lesser mobs from the main tank or the softies, incase there's just too many of them for a single tank. (Possibly this was ment with "backup tank").

Since a champion uses heavy armor, with a proper healer in the back, he/she can tank quite okay in average situations. Especially seeing the nice damage amount this is great for crowds of lesser foes. But the lack of a shield and defensive ability will not make a champion last long in tough situations.

This is true..and how it usually goes with champ normally being the Main Assist. It is sort of tanking in it´s way too.
This has been discussed more properly in some other areas. (these fellowship roles have been discussed in so many of the classes sections, that can´t even remember in which on )

Galatyer wrote:

i also seem to be regulaly abandoned by the group or left behind when fighting

Could you tell a bit more about this?
I mean how, when, why, at what circumstances?

well some times when i get a group that follows the rules (sort of)you lot talk about and the tank aggros all mobs then i go after the weakest or the ranged then most of the time i end up on my own so far the worst time was against 5 mobs and the rest of the group said i could deal with it and buggered off to get more nut then i do also seem to end up in a lot of groups with the 'not so rare' cowardly guardian

Sounds like these groups consisted of rather unexperienced players, which is quite common at lower levels. You just have to live with it until your level raises and you later group up with more experienced players.

I suffered alot from that too, especially since as guardian I am at highest risk. But right now, being L37, I found that things improved alot. Actually it even seems that they like it if me - being tank - asks each class to act like this or that in the team, and people react very understanding.

Summary: Your observations are pretty normal, things get better later.

Spot on Tigrim.
That is quite common behaviour in low-level groups Galatyer.
And nothing wrong with it really. You learn by doing and making mistakes. (Naturally it can be as irritating as hell when there are some people that just won´t listen and don´t want to take any adivce at all.)
But the fact that they are leaving you on your own doesn´t seem right to me.
If you can´t get them do things like you´d like to, better just do things like they like it. This way at least you don´t get the blame

In my experience people start to learn about tactics of fellowshipping from 30-35 upwards, when fellowship quests start to get a bit harder and you have to fight against more than just few normal elites at a time.

Marlon wrote:

If you can´t get them do things like you´d like to, better just do things like they like it. This way at least you don´t get the blame

Myself, I don't like giving in to others if they demand wrong things. So once a while - if not only they don't care for proper advice but also demand stupid things from me (as tank being at highest risk in a stupid group!) - I plainly tell them to learn the ropes, but I will not fund their fellowship-training with my repair costs. Afterall, a guardian has the highest repair costs of all classes, even without dieing.

But then, I know that I'm rather strict about people I teamup with. The friend list helps me to be selective.

Tigrim wrote:

But then, I know that I'm rather strict about people I teamup with. The friend list helps me to be selective.

Same here.
You normally get the feeling straight from the start, when joining a fellowship, how things are going to go. Don´t even have to have any action, just talking and listening and i normally get a good idea, what is to be expected when going get´s tough.

Luckily very high percentage of people in this game so far are very open and easygoing, good in giving and receiving adivices. Naturally there are the types who don´t give it a toss what you are telling, or asking them to do. But they normally tend to learn fast enough when shit really hits the fan the first time because of their reckless playing.

The problem for me is the types who tend to know evrything(and their knowledge is just bogus) and don´t pay any attention to what others have to say even how hard you try to convince them, that there really is a better or easier way of doing things.
In such situation I just shut my mouth and let the things go as they go.

But in every fellowship and every situation, good or bad, there always is something that one, even the most expereinced players, can learn.

My opinnion about the attributes has changed a bit in these few past months...

Might is definately still the most important thing, but nowadays I try to focus on increasing both will and fate. Vitality is something that i´m not bothered at all at the moment.
As the questing at the moment for me is mainly(only) fellowship-based, it means that i´m usually always with a healer or tank. So either i get healed or don´t even get that much damage, so sod vitality i say!!
it´s the most lowest of my attributes by far. It´s something like 146 at the moment. You´ll see even minstrels and lore-masters with higher Vitality than I have

Like I said earlier, Agility is good to have, though not really that important. But as the gear having Might in them, usually tend to have agility too, agility is my second highest attribute at the moment.
High agility has it´s definate benefits though...crit crit crit crit, so don´t really mind it being quite high.

well Marlon you can be happy now on the screen that come up when im loading the game just after the intro film it says that champs will be getting an upgrade this time

p.s marlon when i wrote that thing before it was because i was in a bad mood from the group abandoning me in the great barrow