Champion

Galatyer wrote:

well Marlon you can be happy now on the screen that come up when im loading the game just after the intro film it says that champs will be getting an upgrade this time

I know, but the upgrdades are nothing that special. Only a vit adjusting and such..nothing new like the gaurdians and burglaras are getting

oh guess we have to live off our natural skills then unlike that other lot

Galatyer wrote:

oh guess we have to live off our natural skills then unlike that other lot

yes, i know.
As i stated in the guardian topic already, champion was propably the most stable class in the first place, so there hasn´t been that much need to repair it.

well guys - look at it from the half full glass perspective:
The Champ was created as a perfect class and EVERY other class is being/has been/will be adjusted to it!

(with an exeption of minsterls of course. Everyone knows they need more DPS. And a God Mode)

...and when this patch will be released?

I will check tonight

Today i learned something new (well sort of, as i always knew that there´s nothing we champs can´t do )

We were at CD with no guardian (MNS, HNT, LM, CPT 2x CHM)
And basicly we didn´t have a tank at all. I mean no one with a shield or acting as a main tank.
The other champ aggroed the mob at first and if required we balled the aggro between us, but both of us dual wielding and not even using glory that often.
I must say that LM and CPT had a huge role with their stuns and buffs (and not to forget our own Ceca and Cerras), but it certainly showed me that tanking, as in the meaning of how i´ve learned to see it so far isn´t a must.

We even got Helchie down without any bigger fuss, when we all got the hang of it how it should be done this way. (Cerras might not have such a bright insight on this as me though, with all the potions he had to use and how he had to take care of his own wealth-being at times ).

I´m not saying that you´re out of your jobs guardians , as it is so much easier and simplier with one of you guys on board.

I know of champs acting as a main tank, but then they´ve been with a shield and trying to act as a one in any other way as best as they could too...this time there wasn´t a real main tank...just 2 off-tanks much more rather. Or it just might´ve been that we just happened to had the perfect build in our group for such a "behaviour"

This might not come as a news to some of you, but for me it did, first time in ages and like in 10 levels or so, that i´ve done some proper action with another champion in a fellowship. Makes me miss the good old times, when i was beating some trolls in trollshaws with a fellowship of 5, all of them champs, that my friends was pure and simple mayhem!!

Well, I can only add that about half of my group quests was made without guardian. The champ than, especially when is only one in group takes the role of some kind of tank. For example when some time ago in Trollshaws we have fellwship: champ (me ), capt., hunter (Elbeanir) and 3 LM (one of them was Undiel) and the quest goes smoothly (when Lore-masters starts their stuns symphony rest had to only slash the enemy). I`v prefer high evade and parry skills than shield but also I have always one good heavy shield in my inwentory fo just case


About five champs fellowship Marlon...soon Mate we will do this again

Tonight i once again learned something new, while helping Taera finally got his b7c8 done

Well not totally new, but nevertheless, as i´m not used to act as a main tank.

So far i´ve almost totally ignored the skill Rising ire. Only used it when grinding with LM or MNS to get the aggro away from the other. But never really paid any attention to what the skill actually does.

It pull´s the aggro of every single mob that is targeting your target to whom you use the skill. VERY useful in keeping the minstrel safe.
And once again, sod the shields, sod the Glory-skill. Dual wield, ardour or controlled burn or even fervour is the way to go. In the hands of capable minstrel and captain nothing can go wrong. Just keep an eye on the minstrel and keep doing some corpses

Couple of amusing/interesting things in this thread:

1. Marlon's point about non guardians tanking. Champs and even Hunters make decent tanks as long as you have a captain and good CC along, despite being otherwise rather brittle. Why? Because CC can tie up everything that's not the main target (this takes some co-ordination btw - ie AoEs are outlawed). The captain then puts his healing mark on the main target. This returns healing to each fs member in proportion to the damage they are doing. Champs and Hunters do a lot of damage, hence lots of self healing. Tailla (Hunter), Clavain (LM) and me (Captain) use this system with a fair degree of success when we're 3 handing ie Tailla is the tank. Tanking is just a form of CC at the end of the day and if your other CC methods are good enough you don't need a true tank.

2. Marlon's story about the 6 champs in one fs reminded me of one time when Tailla and I were fs-ing with our alts (Champ and Burg) and joined a fs with a total of 3 champs and 2 burgs doing the Blackfire quest in the Nan Wathren (3 torches to blow up crates). We had no tank and no healing, other than fsms but the combo of CC and DPS was truly devastating. Inevitably it went wrong, we were pushed back from one combat by adds, only to run into the respawn from the previous one - lol. We were overrun and once the last champ went down the other burg and I fled (as only burgs can ) until it was safe to come out.

We found the last crate nearby, guarded by 3 elites (white/dk blue). Unwilling to leave without the final bit of the q we hatched a cunning plan. We each mezed one of the elites, I rushed in and tanked the 3rd while the other burg blew the crate and we escaped into the night by jumping off a cliff (before they made jumping more dangerous). Burgs rock btw - pure mayhem.

The point about all of the above is that one of the things I love about LOTRO is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is enough flexibility with the classes that any fs combination can be made to work (within reason) as long as the players are intelligent enough to adjust their style to suit.

Jerelien wrote:

The point about all of the above is that one of the things I love about LOTRO is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. There is enough flexibility with the classes that any fs combination can be made to work (within reason) as long as the players are intelligent enough to adjust their style to suit.

That is true. After all the improvements and changes they´ve made in the classes and their skills, no class is irreplaceable.
In bigger raids and some of the harder bosses in end game instances properly built fs (inc. MNS; GRD; MA, CC etc etc etc) is required of course, but in 95% of the cases you don´t need a certain class to stand a chance.
This is bad news to minstrels and guardians, which were the cornerstones of the fellowships in the early days, but nowadays you don´t necessary need either of them. It´s all down to knowing your class, other classes and co-operating with them.

This is something i really like. Gives you so much more freedom and chance to find out new things about your class and to push your own boundaries.
Saying this, i always feel safer and more confident when i have a capable guardian by my side, as i can fully concentrate on MA´s task, but lately i´ve came to face the fact, that i can enjoy fellowshipping without a one too.

Stop dreaming guys.

I wanna see a party going through the RIFT or Helegrod w/o a guardian.
Everything is possible but in theory or for the top hard core players. Moreover it will take ages to accomplish the mission comparing to the party with a guardian.
Only typical, f.e. 6 person instances, are able to be done w/o shield-bearers.

P.S.
Don't get me wrong but the truth is that when there're no champs or hunters around it's not a tragedy. It will only take little bit longer to slay enemies.
However it's always nice to have a dps machine by your side.

Thopor wrote:

Stop dreaming guys.

I wanna see a party going through the RIFT or Helegrod w/o a guardian.
Everything is possible but in theory or for the top hard core players. Moreover it will take ages to accomplish the mission comparing to the party with a guardian.
Only typical, f.e. 6 person instances, are able to be done w/o shield-bearers.

P.S.
Don't get me wrong but the truth is that when there're no champs or hunters around it's not a tragedy. It will only take little bit longer to slay enemies.
However it's always nice to have a dps machine by your side.

Aye.

That´s what i meant. Rift and Helegrod are places where one can´t go without a proper tank.
And about it not being a tragedy without hunters..i agree
As you mentioned, and i did too, no class is a must these days in normal fellowshipping/instances.

Here´s my current build for you Votiak. No, stances, no buffs, no nothing. Note that it´s my aoe(nowadays normal ) build. Made for pvp´ing thus very aoe oriented. With straight damage dealing, i would swap all those aoe class traits to 4 x +10 might traits and raging blade for ferocious strike.

Thanks Marlon for picks, it`s no so bad with me:) Especially good looks trait " controlled burn", it gives a chance to transfer some fate points to other features. Have to also invest some time in deeds, my virtues are very poor...well...To WAR!!!

A bit of an update about my thoughts about the champion.


General

The role of the champion and the possible ways how to play a one has changed back and worth during these 2 years of LOTRO.

As difference between the roles of all the classes in general has been getting narrower and narrower all time, this has naturally affected the champion aswell.

But basicly our primary role still is doing DPS and in more detail doing AOE damage. We also have quite good tanking abilities, which allows us to do even adequate main tanking. With certain restrictions.

Our DPS producing, as some might´ve already gathered, has been lowered duing the latest patch, whereas some other classes DPS has been improved (mainly tactical classes).
But that doesn´t change the fact that we still can outlast propably every other class in doing DPS over time. Which still makes us the DPS-class of the game.

Build

In theory, there are three different main build lines, from which to choose. The deadly storm-line, the berserker-line and the martial champion-line.
The first one focusing on AOE producing, second direct on DPS and the last on tanking abilities.

You can mix the three lines aswell, choosing class traits from each of the "trees", but i myself favour concentrating on one.
I´ve been going with Deadly-storm and Berserker and ignored Martial one totally. (Even if we can tank quite nicely, I find it a job for Guardians and Wardens)

I won´t be going too much on details of the traits on each line. I just say that it´s much more on personal taste, which traits you choose form each line and which not.
Ans selecting between the AOE and DPS build, well matter of personal taste aswell. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Legendary traits

Out of the six available, i´m still using the three I got ages ago.

Ferocious strikes deals 3 powerful hits which can´t be parried or blocked and it can´t never miss. The damage it deals is like main hand weapon damage 160% + 55 x2 and 160% off hand weapon damage + 69.
Cooldown is the big minus here. 30 seconds

Explosion of blades is a powerful AOE skill, which affects 8 targets. With right traits, it can affect even more, 10 or 12 i think it was. The damage it deals is like 130% weapon damage x 3 for each mob. Generates a hell of lot threat aswell. This is a nice skill to have while PVP´ing
Also nice skill to have when you´re tanking.
Cooldown 10 seconds.

Controlled burn is the "4th stance" that us champions have. One difference is that it can´t be used continously. It lasts as long as we´re in combat, or we drop below 20% of our morale. It gives us +1290 in combat power regen and + 23% melee damage. Downside is the 10 minutes cooldown, but in instances for example that is more than enough to get it wokring again while fighting ones way towards the next boss.

Those are the three I´m using.
Fight on is the fourth original one, which is pretty much useless. Transforms small portion of targets (mob) power to the champion.

Deathstorm is the legendary skill form the AOE-line. What it does is it removes all the cooldowns from the AOE skills and fervour needed for AOE skills is 0. Can´t remember the exact time of the skill, but i think itws something like 10 seconds or so. Basicly champion has 6 different AOE skills, and you have just about enough time to do the all with deathstorm. Cooldown is 10 minutes.
A very nice skill, especially while PVP´ing.
A champion on deathstorm can cause incredible amount of overall damage in crowd of mobs or creeps.

Continous blood-rage is, a toggle skill that has a morale cost each
second and reduces incoming healing almost completely. In return, the champion gains a damage bonus that increases over time to go with the
immunity to combat states in Blood Rage. The price in this one is quite huge. 440 morale at the start and then 60 morale/second. AND -90% to incoming heals!

The legendary skill from the Martial champion line is something that i haven´t acquired so far, but basicly it is somehting that improves champions self-heals and few buffs that we have.


Virtues and stats

Might has always been the number one skill for us champions and that is what one might want to look with the virtues aswell.
Lately i´ve changed my mind about morale. As the entire Moria is more or less solo adventuring, one could really find morale useful.
Agility is nice to have aswell, crits my friends, crits.

These three are the main stats I look in virtues and in gear. And in that order. Will is a bonus that usually comes with the gear that have might and/or vitality. Hight power isn´t a goal in itself i set my eyes on, but the good gear for us champs usually have will or + max power in them aswell.

Fate on the other hand is something I still consider somewhat useless to us champions. Same goes with in-combat power regen. I already mentioned with controlled burn, that it has rather impressive +1290 in-combat power-regen. So does the most used stance we have; fervour. The +23% melee damage is there too. (The downside to fervour is that champion cannot parry, block or evade with it.)
The ICPR is so impressive on both of these stances, that fate and ICPR that gear or virtues can give us aren´t that important anymore.
One handy skill we also have is called Second wind, which after defeating an enemy gives us +240 power. Downside is longish cooldown of 15 seconds.

Because of the reasons above, and the thing that our skills don´t burn that much power in the first place, our power-storage very rarely runs out.
Naturally there are exceptions, champions going on flurry (-20% attack duration for 30 secs) and battering the mobs with most powerful hit they have on constant basis etc etc, but in general, it´s very rare that champions runs out of power.


Here´s my current stats:
Might 510
Agility 411
Vitality 414
Will 313
Fate 134
Melee crit 2672

Morale 4869
Power 2614.

Would like to have a bit more morale (about 5k) with on expense of power. Which can be easily done with proper relics on my legendary items.


Gear

Not much to say here really. Like mentioned above, go for might and vitality and morale. Agility is important aswell.

Weaponwise, it seems to be ongoing debate, wether dual-wield is better than 2-hand weapon. And wether fast weapon(s) is better than slow one(s).
There is an interesting experiment done about the subject, which´s results you can find here: http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347315

As it shows in that topic, there are so many things that has to be taken into consideration, that there isn´t any certain knowledge out there, but it gives some directions at least.

As for the Legendary gear legacies, that´s a matter of taste and personal likings. I myself, beig the half berserk hald aoe-lover, have been pretty much going for those.

Fervour damage, aoe damage, aoe and fervour power costs and naturally the DPS of the weapon are the legacies i´m after.
Increase for the bracing attack (+445 morale atm and 2x 123% weapon damage) is something that i won´t overlook either.


Few more notes on skills

Majority of champion skills are meant to harm someone. (wether it´s the enemy, the champion himself, or a fellowship member is pretty much down to the indvidual pushing the buttons ) I won´t be goign on about them too much. Let´s just say that there are quite a few straight and AOE DPSskills that us champions posses.

One of them might be worth to mention here though. Sound the attack is a AOE skill, which affects upto 5 mobs, causing them to stun for 3 seconds. Not much, I know, but sometimes can be a real life saver (cooldown 20 secs)

I talked about stances earlier. Stating that Controlled burn could be considered as 4th stance and Fervour was already introduced aswell.
The other too are Ardour and Glory.
Ardour gives about +1000 in-combat power regen and reduces evade and parry like -1500. it also gives +3% melee damage. I used to use this stance more than fervour, but recently i´m came back to fervour as it deals a whole lot more damage. To be honest, can´t even think what good Ardour is anymore.
Glory is a stance for tanking champions. +903 ICPR, +60% threat and -15% melee damage.

Now back to skills. Champion has a variety of useful skills other than meant for pure DPS.
Clobber is propably a one that majority of people are aware of. A real instance saver. It simply interrupts any time-delayed action the mob is about to do. Cooldown is only for 3 seconds (which at times can feel like a lifetime)
Champions challenge. Heard champions shouting? That´s them using this skill. It taunts the target to focus it´s attack on you for 10 seconds. No exact numbers are shown, and it depends on threats and stuff, but it usually works. (3 out of 5 i´d say) cooldown 30 seconds
Ebbing ire and Rising ire Rising Ire is a useful skill. It takes 15% of accumulated threat away from the target and transfers it on champion (CD 20 secs). Ebbing ire on the other hand gives 25% of acc. threat away from the champion and gives it to the target. You might want to be careful not to mixh these when in battle. Could cause you or the poor minstrel to die in seconds should you do that
Heroics. After defeating an enemy, you can give about +350 power buff to your fellows. Not much, but can be a life-saver too at best. Cooldown 10 minutes
Adamant Buff that gives the champion -10% on imcoming melee and ranged damage for 30 secs. Cd 15 minutes
Sudden defence +2500 evade and +2300 parry for 30 seconds. Cd 5 minutes.
Dire need Transfers 50% of your existing power to 200% on your morale. For example if you have 1000 of power left and you use dire need, you get +2000 of morale. Very commonly used "panic-button". Just be sure that you actually have some power left to make it useful.


One thing I didn´t go too throughly is Fervour. Not as in the stance called fervour. The other Fervour is the "energy" which defines when champion is ready to use his skills. Each skills requires certain amont of fervour. And to gain fervour, you must be in combat and/or use some of your lower dps skills to build it.
Each of champions stances builds fervour differently. Glory gives 1 fervour/12 seconds, Ardour 1/9, Controlled burn 1/5 anf Fervour 1/4.

More powerful the skill, the more it takes of fervour and you need to go building it up again. The max on fervour meter is 5. No skill requires more than that.
There is a skill called Red haze, which can be used after killed an enemy (can´t be used same time with the power-buffing Second wind). It gives you 1 fervour pip immediately and additional fervour pip every 15 seconds.
You must not be out of combat for more than 9 seconds or this skill will reset. Cooldown on this one is 5 seconds.
When you are duoing with a champion, you might´ve wondered at times, what´s the rush. Why is he running towards the next enemy, when the previous one has been hardly killed. Well, here´s your answer. He´s keeping his fervour up, thus allowing him to deal more powerful hits on more constant basis. Mind you, constant use of Red haze is the fastest way to run out of power, so using it too much ain´t that beneficial in the long run.
And one might want to keep any eye on his morale too.



Well, that´s pretty much what springs to my mind this time.
I think that´s pretty much my most thorough presentation about champion so far. Even though not that focused on the tactical and pratcical side of things, more on theory.

Hope it helps you peeps to understand us champions a bit better again. And should any of you fellow champs have anything to add or if you have different kind of view, please speak your minds

Questions and views from other classes are welcome aswell.



EDIT. Added one legendary skill, Deathstorm.

What would I say... well, quite adequate description of champion I'd like to know what you mean by the difference of classes has gone narrower and narrower. Would you describe abit what you mean? Is it just that for example minstrel does more damage these days and isn't only counting on healing or do you have something exact on your mind?

Have you got a lot of experiences as a tank-champion or have you always been the damage dealer? For example have you been a tank somewhere in Moria? Just would like to hear some experiences of that job, I know you have a GRD alt and is Champion anything compared to that in the same role?

Lamaerahd wrote:

What would I say... well, quite adequate description of champion I'd like to know what you mean by the difference of classes has gone narrower and narrower. Would you describe abit what you mean? Is it just that for example minstrel does more damage these days and isn't only counting on healing or do you have something exact on your mind?

Have you got a lot of experiences as a tank-champion or have you always been the damage dealer? For example have you been a tank somewhere in Moria? Just would like to hear some experiences of that job, I know you have a GRD alt and is Champion anything compared to that in the same role?

What i mean by the difference between the classes getting narrower is pretty much along the line you mentioned there.

Tactical classes DPS have been improved over time quite a lot, whereas DPS-classes, mainly champion and hunter, DPS has stayed about about the same, or even decreased. Same goes with survival skills of different classes and so on.
There really isn´t that bigger difference anymore between different classes soloingwise. Naturally, skills are different and the focus may seem different and there are different tactical ways some classes should be played than others.
But at the end of the day, each class deals about the same amount of damage over time and they can stand about the same amount of damage too. ANd that is, at the end of the line when everything else is stripped, what these kind of games are about, aren´t they?

The arrival of two new classes has closed the gap greatly aswell. Warden somewhere in between of guardian and champion. Rune-keeper somewhere in between of minstrel and lore-master or maybe even captain.

If you make a line from the classes, based on their suppoused roles it would go something like this:

GRD-WRD-CHM-HNT-BRG-LM-CPT-RK-MNS.


Champion and and hunter being the "pure" DPS classes. Warden going for the direction of tanking class with a DPS edge on it. Guardian being pure tank. Burglar and Lore-master debuffers and stunners with DPS edge on them and Captain more of a debuffer (with tanking edge, so CPT might actually be ahead of BRG and LM aswell) and minstrel being "pure" healer class. Rune-keeper somwhere in the middle.

This in theory that is.
Now when you think of traditional roles in a fellowship, and the "roles" I mentioned with the line over there, the line is very thin nowdays. Not what it used to be. I mean a fellowship doesn´t need neceserraly classes from the two edges anymore. Not even the two closest ones from the each end of the lines. It still is beneficial to have a proper tank and proper healer in a fellowship, but it ain´t essential.
Champion and captain can act quite nicely as a tank. With properly built fellowship no rune-keeper or minstrel is a must either. Captain and lore-master together can "replace" them.
"Pure" DPS-classes aren´t essential either with improved DPS form the tactical classes. Warden can do nice DPS, even guardian can do adequate damage with right stance. Crowd control and debuffing can be replaced with right amount of DPS and heavy armour. etc etc etc.

It´s not always that simple as I put here, but I hope you can get the main thought i´m trying to make here. The lines between traditional roles are going thinner and thinner. On the other hand it´s a good thing and on the other not.
You don´t have to wait hours to find the missing class for your fellowship is naturally the biggest + side.
But the flip side of the coin is, that the feel of speciality, that used to come with each 7 classes is diminishing. There is some other class(es) that can do the same job and the same things almost, if not even, as good as you. I´m afraid it might end up in a situation where there is like 12 classes, where practicly the only difference is the appearence, armour type and few special skills.

I´m pointing my finger towards the 2 new classes and the ongoing altering of the old classes.

I hope I did at least somehow make it clear what i´m meaning with this. many thoughts and things I left unsaid and many things i can´t even properly put to words.


About my views tanking with a champion, i´ll need to get back later, as i´m running short of time now, gotta dash soon for some RL things